You may have wondered what Mark Thatcher did to deserve a knighthood. He was not chairman of a Bank which cost the taxpayer billions. Nor did he grow sideburns and win the Tour de France.
The truth is that “Sir” Mark is not a knight at all. He is …wait for it…a baronet. What’s the difference? Well to be honest, for an Irish Republican, I know far more than is strictly necessary about the British Honours system.
Dennis Thatcher…love him (as the selfless power behind Maggie) or loathe him as a boorish old buffer who played too much golf….was a successful businessman. As a recognition of serving the Prime Minister or as a businessman, he “deserved” an honour (under the rules) but clearly it would have been inappropriate for him to receive one while Maggie was still in office.
Consequently he was awarded a baronetcy a month after Maggie resigned office. In itself this is very curious as awarding a baronetcy had fallen into dis-use since the 1950s. Dennis is certainly the last person to receive one.
Of course nobody gets a hereditary peerage these days. For my American readers this is the style “Lord” and passed down. And a Life Peerage (also “Lord ” ) dies with the holder. A knighthood (“Sir”) is not hereditary. It also dies with the knight.
But a baronetcy is an interesting hybrid. The holder is styled “Sir” but it is hereditary. Therefore in being awarded the baronetcy….Mark Thatcher, the son on whom Maggie doted was also being awarded a title by stealth. His father was already 75 years old. This has allowed Mark to strut the world as Sir Mark Thatcher.
Yet he has let the side down. Organising and financing a failed military coup in small, oil rich Equatorial Guinea is not the sort of things baronets do…except of course Mark and his friends. The South African court took a dim view, fined him several thousand rand..and imposed a four year jail sentence….suspended. Did his connexion to Margaret Thatcher save him from four years in a South African prison….although his mothers dismissal of Nelson Mandela as a terrorist is a bit ironic. Karma is a bitch. But surely this would imply that Mark Thatcher has profited from being his mothers son.
Of course he is called “Sir” thru being his fathers son.
Is it relevant? His mother is dead. And I on record for drawing attention to the fact that over on Slugger O’Toole, Sheldon had drawn attention to the fact that the neice of a Sinn Fein MP had been sentenced to five years in a London court….for fraud.
Indeed…fraud and organising a military coup. I can see how Sheldon and the good folks on Slugger see the heinous act of fraud being a bigger issue.
But is it relevant to Mommys death? Yes. Next week Sir Mark will be chief mourner at his mothers funeral, walking behind a gun carriage bearing her coffin. It will cost £8.million and is frankly a State Funeral by stealth. Is this an occasion that is dignified or merely as sordid and sleazy as Thatcherism. A fitting farewell?
Vulgar, Vulgar, Vulgar…..as that royal courtier said about Princess Fergie.
Keeping An Eye On the Czar of Russia 
The term Businessman seems very vague these days. It could mean almost anything. I would like to see the term Robber Baron used more often to describe such people. Of course Mark is not the only convicted criminal to pay homage to his late mother Lord Archer and Jonathan Aitken have also paid tribute.
Any truth to the rumour that thousands of people from former mining communities in the North of England are about to arrive in London? I hope so maybe they could get together with those behind the poll tax riot and those responsible for the more recent rioting. I have a feeling the coppers will earn there overtime this weekend.
I’ve not heard that one.
Let me predict that there won’t be that much trouble. Were you the doomsayer who predicted St Patricks day troulble?
I don’t know…was I?
According to the Daily Mail one of the key figures in the Great Train Robbery was someone known only as “The Ulster Man”. He was one of 4 involved in the heist who were never caught.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2296402/Bruce-Reynolds-funeral-Ronnie-Biggs-flicks-V-sign-funeral-Great-Train-Robber.html
That’s interesting. I never knew that.
Apparently the money was laundered thru the turnstiles of a London football Club.
Interesting cast list…Jamie Foreman, Eric Hall etc at the funeral.
I recall the actor Billy Murray (Don Beech in The Bill and the lawyers compensation ad) and David Webb the former Chelsea footballer were at a Kray funeral.
A peer of the realm and a notorious gangster never.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=-DB1Kdz28ws&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-DB1Kdz28ws
Boothby is an interesting character, a kinda footnote to the 1960s.
He was a regular on early TV chat shows and panel games.
A kinda celebrity ex politician, in the way that Ann Widdicombe is now.
If he was alive today he would be in the Big Brother house or on Im A Celebrity.
Certainly in the 1960s a mere schoolboy like myself would not have known that he was notorious. That stuff really only emerged after his death.
But nearly every time he appeared on TV…smoking a cigar and wearing a bow tie, my father would mention that Boothby hd an affair with Harold McMillans wife.
Mark Thatcher is an example of the sense of entitlement and superiority typical of the Tory party. Not the type of person I’d want to go for a pint with.
Yes…I don’t suppose he sees himself as a criminal.
Carol Thatcher is much nicer, and quite good fun as a journalist to read or watch on telly. I don’t think she got to have a title, though.
Hardly….she referred to a French tennis player in racist terms which is not a nice thing to do. Perhaps you think that it is.
Two people can hardly inherit the same title, can they?
And how often do you think Carol would appear in the Media if her name was Carol Smith not Thatcher? No wonder Mr Aitken kicked Carol to the kerb to much of a crybaby. Of course it didn’t do Mr Aitken’s political career much good.
“He made Carol cry” LOL.
Private Eye claim he de-flowered Carol.
Could be as many old lags at Thatchers funeral as there was at Bruce Reynolds funeral (not Bruce Richardson as I called him in another thread)
Add in a few journos and celebs who might soon be at Her Majesty’s pleasure….it could be a good day out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bindon
I just read this. I remember John Bindon but mostly from his trial….although he had been a familiar face in 1970s programmes.
By the way Billy Murray whom I referred to other was also in the Mick Jagger movie, playing a heavy and in the original Get Carter.
Id forgotten about George Sewell. He played a Detective in early 1970s but is better known for his Chief Superintendant role in The Detectives, the Jasper Carrott Robert Powell comedy.
Difficult to know where Life imitates Art. Some London actors like to frequent with gangsters. Some London gangsters like to hng out with celebs such as actors and footballers.
And there is undoubtedly a cross over between the two.
And no doubt a few actors,especially heavies and stunt men were hired because of their familiarity with the gangster world.
And with bookies only legal since around 1960, it’s easy to see that gangsters filled a void.
Bob Hoskins, a witness in Bindons trial was only making his name at that stage.
Michael Caine openly states that he based his Carter character on gangsters he hd known.
But I’ve always tended to think that Caine is ACTING even when claiming that…to make himself more interesting.
There is a curious cross over in the world of stunt men, extras, bodyguards….crime.
Bindons notoriety was indeed based on the size of his er….organ. And apparently Princess Margaret who was frankly a slag was curious to see it. Apparently Bindons party trick was to balance objects and hang objects from it.
There was a 1960s set based in Mayfair which was notorious.
One of the Astors introduced Christine Keeler to John Profumo.
And of course spooks were close to that story.
aristocrats…politicians…models and “models” …party girls and prostitutes….celebs.
I still recall BBC News reporting the scandal and as an 11 yr old I heard things on the news that still make me think “did I really hear that?”
Certainly a Royal personage was mentioned around that time.
And I suppose the older members of that set had their origins in the Louche lifestyle of 1930s London.
Names that were bandied about at the time and now dead included Douglas Fairbanks junior.
Of course the only mention at the time was of wild parties.
But with homosexuality illegal it is likely there was a sub-set.
And indeed paedophiles.
necessarily that was a secret world…whether wild parties for social reasons or homosexuality and paedophiles for criminal reasons.
But I wonder if the younger set in the 1960s…eg Saville is a legacy of that playing out where octogenarian entertainers are under police investigation because basically they outlived everyone else, especially Saville.
http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/jimmy-savile-kray-twins-cliff-richards.html
Monday 10:35 UTV The Jacobites and Derry.
I take it there’ll be little posted while that’s on?
Maybe I will be on it. LOL
Promise!!!! That’ll up the viewing figures by millions
Im an international man of mystery …I cannot appear in public..
The programme was supposed to have been made about three years ago.
As I heard it…people who appear objected to others…and/or wanted history that showed them in a good light.
Some people thought they had been “set up” previously.
I heard that Eamonn O’Ciadhra was involved. He is probably Ireland’s leading authority on the Jacobites.
Well…I only know about cavalry stuff.
There will probably be some reference to Pennyburn and Shantallow outside the walls but scenes of minor skirmishes involving a cattle raid from inside the city.
There was also some filming done around Newtownbutler, ..so probably some detail on the battle there. or maybe that won’t make it to the screen.
According to the Daily Mail Mark Thatcher’s son plans to have a career in American politics. Will he have to renounce the title if he is elected?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307353/Margaret-Thatchers-American-football-star-grandson-Michael-takes-world-US-politics.html
Am I right in saying Thatcher has two kids.
I suppose it would pass to the other child…if there is one.
I must look Thatcher up on Wikipedia…can’t do it right now.
I have a feeling he has two kids…boy and girl from first marriage.
not sure about second marriage.
A daughter called Amanda Margaret Thatcher.
Does anyone know if the First Ministers have been invited to the funeral? Also whether it is Enda Kenny or the President of Ireland that will attend for the 26?
No idea.
More of a connection with Ulster than meets the eye… Wikipedia on the root of Baronetcies:
“The present hereditary Order of Baronets in England dates from 22 May 1611 when it was erected by James I who granted the first Letters Patent to 200 gentlemen of good birth with an income of at least £1000 a year. His intention was two fold. Firstly he wanted to fill the gap between peers of the realm and knights so he decided that the baronets were to form the sixth division of the aristocracy following the five degrees of the peerage. Secondly, and *probably more importantly, he needed money to pay for soldiers to carry out the pacification of Ireland*.
“Therefore those of the first creation, in return for the honour, were each required to pay for the upkeep of thirty soldiers for three years amounting to £1095, in those days a very large sum.”
Mick,
Various “Irish” baronetcies are a regular topic of conversation on a Jacobite forum. Tweedy boring crazies of course but thy know a lot of this kinda thing.
essentially many of them created by James were lost after 1688.
Some of course were lost before that.
But many had allegiance to the Stuarts and were deprived of their titles.
Of course Jacobites hold that these are still legitimate.
Some of course went to France with the Wild Geese.
And a link to the current British Government, George Osborne who is an “irish” baronet or will be.
That’s the trouble with baronetcies. They meander thru history. ..almost random.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/mark-thatcher-accused-sources-say-he-got-12m-pounds-from-arms-deal-signed-by-his-mother-1441851.html
It all seems to be unraveling a bit.
It unravelled long ago. Chickens are returning to roosts
This is the first time i have ever commented on one any site about my outlook on our country.I am at my age now ashamed to call myself British.I experienced first hand the decimation of our Naval Bases the closure of the mines,the poverty brought on whole towns and communities.The poll tax fiasco etc etc,and now to see a “”state funeral “” for Maggie,led by a criminal ex gun runner as a peer of the realm.
Whats next Cameron leading the Disabled and OAP’s to euthenasia clinics to feed the ever starving Bankers.
The French did a great job in their “””Revolution”””,the chinese where good in their “”Rebellion”” and many other countries have done the same.They have removed the Cancerous minority from feeding on the masses.It is about time we did the same ,and bring the Great back into Britain.
Thank you for this comment.
It is good to get a British perspective.
I don’t actually remember when she died…Monday or Tuesday.
But to me as an Irish observer is the story is that there has been effectively a palace coup…and The Establishment has been replaced by a new and nasty Establishment.
Effectively The Royals are now paying homage to the Thatcherite Court and courtiers.And I am sure they are quietly fuming.
The arrogance, sense of entitlement of the Thatcherite “court” is absolutely shameless.
The notion (Conor Burns MP) that Big Ben be peeled 87 times as a mark of respect on the day after the funeral….is mind boggling.
I recall the 1965 funeral…operators on the giant cranes at London docks saluted by lowering their cranes. Presumably most or at least some were Labourite and even if there are actually people working on the docks in 2013, it’s hard to see that kind of respect…spontaneous I think.
The orchestration of this funeral is a shameless way of saying “We own this City”
Good for Stephen Lockwood. I echo his dislike of Maggie and though I live in the south east of England in the midst of her “people” ,I retain my Labour membership but hope fervently for the separation of Scotland so that i can apply for the passport I am entitled to by birth, I can no longer afford to, visit Edinburgh, except by coach, but won’t let that deter me. I am Scots/Ulster Irish and was NEVER one of Thatcher’s people
Thank you Alison. I appreciate that.
One small point if I may.
How will Labour campaign on the Referendum and will you be allowed to advocate Independence.
As an Irish nationalist with a lifelong interest in Jacobite History, I wish SCotland well.
Yes I regret that Scottish Labour is against Scottish Independence though I see many hurdles to surmount.. The UK is far too much tipped towards the south east of a small island and Westminster’s desire for world power and influence seems obsolete to me. Scotland physically is nearer to the Scandinavian nations as it was in the past when Orkney was the dominant shipping cross roads of the North. Despite alliances with France in the distant past, Scotland, and maybe Ireland, should look north.
When my mother was born in Ulster in 1908, there were no separate six counties and Ireland should logically be one country. Logic doesn’t seem to feature when culture and religion come into question, alas. I expect Ireland would like to see the back of Trident as well as the Scots.
Incidentally I only discovered you today when wondering idly , along with many others, I suspect, how the hell Mark Thatcher got to be a “sir”. Now I know. Pathetic. No wonder the old style nobs wanted rid of the grocer’s daughter.
On Thatcher…I think too much has been made of the “grocers daughter” and not nearly enough of the “criminals mother”.
Alfred Roberts is her heritage.
“Sir” Mark Thatcher is her legacy.
Thats the “journey” arguably linked thru Dennis Thatcher.
Having come from the middle class…fee paying school she ensured that her descendents were part of an elite….for ever.
She privatised Industries…and her funeral has been nationised.
It’s truly stunning.
On Scotland….For very different reasons Conservative and Labour are opposed tomScottish independence.
Conservative…they can’t repudiate their attachment to the “Union” but ironically an independent Scotland would make it easier for them to get a simple majority at Westminster.
And of course Labour needs Scottish MPs in the lobby.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/14/thatcher-knew-of-equatorial-giunea-coup-attempt
Allison and Stephen: welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the welcome.
Can you explain the origin of your cryptic title and sub title please or am I supposed to investigate eighteenth century military history?
“Keeping An Eye onthe Czar of Russia” references a comment made by the Editor of a small Irish provincial news paper….the Skibereen Eagle in the mid 19th century.
lthough the bulk of the newspaper was devoted to small court cases, farmers market reports, the Editor had a penchant for commenting on global events.
On one occasion, writing about Russian expansion he wrote that the Skibereen Eagle was keeping an eye on the Czar of Russia.
I see myself in the same way…a complete nobody keeping an eye on Peter Robinson, Barak Obama, David Cameron. …and Mark Thatcher.
I have always been slightly wary of attributing too much importance to Blogging. To some extent, Blogging is based on the Baghdad Blogger and how the Guardian Media pages reacted to that.
If the Blog has a central theme, it is about Conflict Resolution…and the fault line between Politics and History. Short term and Long term issues.
In Norn Iron, in the rush to create a particular kind of society (LetsGetAlongerism is a phrase I invented in early 2010) we have not been faithful to History.
In the last year…and again in the last six months this Blog has taken off and I am in the uncomfortable position of taking myself seriously.
The name “Fitzjames Horse”
Myinitial Internet appearances going back to 1998 and later on various History forums (fora) mostly were under the nom de Guerre FitzjamesHorse and I use it here for continuity and because I still use on it in other History related sites.
I was also a horsey person in my youth.
It was an “Irish” cavalry regiment in the service of France in the 18th century. I have a lifelong interest in Jacobite history with a tendency to underestimate the weather in and around Inverness in Scotland.
I have an undeserved reputation for boring complete strangers into a coma by talking far too much about the “order of battle” at Fontenoy, Culloden and far too many other places.
Allison: I have found that it it not necessary to understand the title of the blog in order to extract meaning from the posts posted here.
It is dumb to say Mark T is a ‘Sir’; it is even dumber to allow Sinn Fein murders to walk the streets free and even allow them to pretend to be UK MPs with no loyalty to the Crown or the UK Government.
Im not sure how it is possible to be loyal to a “Government” You are perhaps confusing the DisUnited Kingdom with a third world country.
And for the record none of Sinn Feins five MPs are murderers.
Their decision to not take seats at Westminster has been endorsed by their voters. They don’t need your permission to make that decision.
The Government to which you claim to be loyal…supports the principle that people in the North of Ireland are Irish or British.
Presumably you agree with that.
And even if you don’t, my Irish nationality and fealty to the Irish nation is nothing to do with you.
Detectives investigating allegations of a VIP paedophile ring today arrested the half-brother of senior Conservative MP John Whittingdale.
The Met paedophile unit held Charles Napier, 65, at his home in Sherborne, Dorset, in connection with the inquiry into claims of sexual abuse centred on Elm guest house, Barnes, in the 1980s.
Mr Whittingdale, Margaret Thatcher’s political secretary when she was Prime Minister, chairs the Commons culture, media and sport committee. He confirmed the arrest, saying: “I am aware that my half-brother was arrested at our mother’s home.
“I have absolutely no idea about the claims but if allegations have been to police they should be investigated.”
Taken from the Evening Standard.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/government-considered-handing-west-belfast-to-republic-29885285.html
The interesting thing for me is that research was done by QUB.
I’m pretty sure that QUB is still involved in work for the NIO. To say more would brand me a “conspiracy theorist”….again.