“Seen Elsewhere” is a much missed feature on Slugger O’Toole. This drew attention to interesting posts on other websites. It seems appropriate to revive it.
So “Seen Elsewhere” Monday 13th August 2012.
On Slugger O’Toole.
As the Olympics ends, a Slugger poster (Baker) notes that Rory McIlroy has won an important Golf Tournament. And that Golf is featured in the next Olympics. On the second comment the vexed question of which team he will be on is noted.
With the next scheduled Westminster Election two and a half years away, Gerry Lynch, Slugger favourite and former paid staff member of Alliance Party (and candidate) posts a “preview”.
Ex-BBC bore (Walker) actually has two posts on the Olympics and how brilliant the Union is.
The peerless Mick Fealty has three posts…..on brilliant British Olympics, boundary changes and a re-imagination of a looser Britishness.
It looks a bit “liberal unionist” to me.
Keeping An Eye On the Czar of Russia 
Excellent idea, a somewhat dormant site of late sprang back to life yesterday, with a good review of Liverpool’s prospects under the stewardship of local boy Brendy Rodgers.
http://threethousandversts.blogspot.co.uk/
The link on that site regarding the Pussy Riot trial was particularly interesting I thought and insanely thorough (though not necessarily what I would agree with):
FJH, you’ve been to Moscow (as have I btw! do you want to see my photos?), I was wondering if you have been following the case and if you have an opinion?
http://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/
I used to enjoy reading slugger, despite disliking his politics immensely I always came away from Turgon’s posts with something to think about. However, after having posts removed from a slugger thread with no explanation, I’ve stayed away.
I’ve been reading the p.ie thread with interest, not posting on it mind you as I haven’t banked the requisite 50 posts elsewhere on the forum. Two things about Mick Fealty’s defence of his team struck me, the first was the quote from David Vance Mick pulled out that it was a ‘nest of republicans’, the guy whose web site was pulled for racism/hate speech? That David Vance? Well clearly if Mr Vance who believes that the BBC is a mouth piece for Hamas thinks it’s a republican site then moderate nationalists are simply the other side of the coin in their belief that it is anything but.
The other problem is this idea that Baker can’t be trolling if he is being ‘factual’. The ‘Londonderry Irish music school’, ‘Baron Adams’ (ad nauseum), that wonderful piece on how ‘is deeply regretted’ should only be used in newspaper death notices etc. I dare say he has a few more on the front page currently. Anyone can fill a blog post with ‘facts’, particularly when you copy paste them from elsewhere and add very little other than a lit touch paper. Other than generating a little site traffic to help with the pay per impression site ads what does it actually add to the discourse?
The point about David Vance is a very good one.
Its like quoting Willie Fraser.
Baker is little more than a troll.
While I myself have (and some would say with justification) been called the kinda person who would start a fight in an empty house….Baker is the kinda guy who actively looks for empty houses in which to start a fight.
Find a contentious topic…..preferably with a lot of symbolism attached…..”UK”,”Londonderry” ……and throw it out to watch people fight. Trolling of the worst kind.
Im assured by people who have actually met him that hes not so bad. And aint that the way with the Internet? It has the quality of discovering that the Wizard of Oz is not quite as impressive as we thought. …
Still there are only a handful of people in the world Id never want to meet ….and Baker is ALL of them.
You mention “site traffic” and certainly for a commercial site it has to be an issue.
And I admit to a certain vanity when my own site stats are high…..stats can be manipulated …..on a day that I post few threads, I get modest traffic. When Im in the mood I post around three threads….and if I “plug” on facebook or twitter the ratings can be high.
If I researched it all properly theres probably a time of day or day in week where it all wrks better.
With a non-commercial site like mine…….the novelty of good statistics wears off…as there becomes a point where it becomes like hard work.
I return to the fact that all this was avoidable…It is not in Sluggers (or Stratagems!) interest to be the story…..and one of the reasons I started this blog a year ago was to have more freedom from Slugger tyrrany (LOL) but there are like minded individuals who have all felt the same to some degree and hopefully I have helped a few find their voice.
Of course the P.ie thread is a catalyst…..but its a question of keeping ‘er lit…..Slugger wont be quite the same again.
Michael,
I absolutely agree with you. The problem is that the same Mr B posts provocative articles and then arbitrarily censors the comments on those posts, unfairly in my view. There is nothing wrong with having a partisan viewpoint as long as you are prepared to substantiate and defend that view when challenged. I no longer comment on his posts for that reason.
In the case to which you refer, he has still not defended his position. It was left to Mick Fealty to do the deed.
Also facts are important, it is how they are interpreted and presented that is usually the subject up for debate.
BangorDub….your comment came in as I was replying to Michael.
The point about ratings is one that you probably get now. I note today that the core team have published blogs on essentially the same theme…..yesterday the same…….”Olympics, Elections and isnt the Union great?” At heart these are just three threads which can be manipulated into seven or eight threads.
Ive often wondered about Sluggers tendency to do this……Mick posts a thread. Walker posts a new thread, a variation on Micks. Then Baker does the same………Why?????
Is there a commercial dimension.
Just read MF’s response to you FJH on Pie; bitchy much?
I don’t understand sometimes why you still comment on SOT; the man is a complete bore and bour, something that has been confirmed to me by a soon to be family member who studied at QUB and met him.
That’s my ‘trolling’ or should I say, bitching for the day.
Keep up the good work FJH, he’s peeved cos you have him on the ropes and he’s coming out insulting, a sure sign of someone losing their patience and an argument.
Well hes certainly behaving in a way that he would not tolerate anyone else doing on Slugger. And indeed I am behaving in a way that I would not do on Slugger.
When I first appeared on Slugger two and a half years ago, a lot of my initial comments were ruled out of order by the moderators because I mentioned the word “source”. Who is saying this and why? Not just the posters themselves…but the news articles they quote.
I have always thought Sluggers reluctance to disclose interest or look at source material…… was the single biggest weakness.
For example Gerry Lynch has been active on Slugger recently after a God-related absence.
If Lynch was to comment on Alliance Party chances in say a bye-election ….it might be relevant to mention that he is a former paid official of Alliance. Almost certainly that would not get past moderation. Or his previous appearances on Slugger.
I think I am proud of one thing. This Blog was not started as an alternative to Slugger. …although perhaps it has become that in some ways. For a year I have blogged about its contradictions. And I think Im “getting thru” as are a lot of others.
The way Slugger works is that new people sign up…..and after months or years become disenchanted with the hypocrisy. They leave. But Slugger does not mind as theres always a fresh intake of new commenters.
Increasingly those that have left are not suffering in silence and hopefully I and others provide a platform.
They cant get away with it….to the same extent.
I made the decision to stay on Slugger because some people would be glad to see the back of me.
That’s quite noble of you tbf FJH. The number of commentators on the site is a lot less than when I commented there and whilst I enjoy the interaction (I’m not without human contact on a day to day basis, honest!), I don’t believe it lives up to the ideals it THINKS it encompasses.
Debate is not done in a spirit of trying to understand something, it is aggressive trolling which the moderators, for some reason unbeknownst to me (wink, wink) don’t get involved in to try and stop.
Oh Im very noble. LOL
There certainly seems to be a slow down in Slugger traffic recently. But I attribute this to the “close season” in Politics.
Certainly a good way to double the traffic on Slugger is to have two posters post threads on essentially the same topic.
I think there is a point of no return with Slugger. A lot of people have cottoned on to how the site actually works.
I will give you that, it is after all the ‘silly season’, but, as was noted on Pie, they are pretty unionist-lite and people have noticed this.
Take Andy Pollak’s piece and the commentators BTL, aside from SK and Tacapall (has he commentated? I’m not going to check again as that would mean me going back more times than it’s worth) it essentially is a lot of unionists slapping each other on the back or telling each other what they want to hear to keep them at ease. There is no actual debate of the points raised, which I think are interesting in some ways and are easily challenged.
There was, I think in 2010, a thread about the wearing of a poppy and Margaret Richie was raised etc., how we (Nats) should wear it to commemorate those who fell in Flanders, yadda yadda yadda. It was actually a pretty interesting run re comments etc., lots of people involved. I noted in my own contribution that the wearing of a poppy without a caveat attached is akin to the Japanese PM going to the Yasakuni shrine where he prayers for war criminals. This greatly annoyed Mr. Joe but we had words and came to an understanding on this, we didn’t agree but I would like to think we came to respect our mutual positions.
I wonder, would I be able to give a reasoned post like that on SOT nowadays? I’ll leave that all for you to decide
Pollak is a protected species on Slugger…and liable to throw a hissy fit at “begrudgers” who disagree with the saintliness of the cross-border nonsense he is engaged in. And exactly the kinda person that Slugger values so there is no real point in trying to engage with him.
The point is that Slugger O’Toole (North) and Fintan O’Toole (south) are Belfast and Dublin based with no real empathy for anywhere more than 15 miles from Belfast or Dublin City Centre.
Have a look at the website for Platform For Change essentially another Slugger favourite run by Trevor Ringland and Robin Wilson……both leading lets getalongerists.
About a year ago PFC conducted a survey and if I recall coorectly had only a handful of replies from Mid Ulster, West Tyrone and Fermanagh-South Tyrone….in fact if I recall there was one constituency that they did not even get a reply from.
Thus Dublin 4 and South/East Belfast have really more in common with each other than they have with Leitrim and South Armagh.
Thats the letsgetalongerist Internet world.
I was on yon PFC website sometime last year; all very anti-infanticide, pro-sunshine and full of the ‘enlightened’, a definite Trojan horse if I ever saw one. Fortunately, it is also filled full of people who would never roll their sleeves up and engage with those who would never be invited to finger food events so the chances of these guys getting anywhere is close to zero.
I discussed with a wanna be journo friend of mine (music and sports journalism, thankfully!) about the letsgetalongerist vote and by sheer coincidence, we noticed that where the UU used to be big east of the Bann, it would appear that the Alliance has taken over their seats; what a coincidence. Paisely did say something very spot on about these voters and why they don’t go for his lot, it’s about class.
I would have to also agree with you regarding the whole mentality of South Belfast and shall we say D4? Pollak takes the young D4 girl who made a bit of a rant at MMcG during the race for an Aras and tries to extrapolate this as evidence of the general feeling of ‘Southerners’, something which I found fairly ridiculous, but hey, if it makes him feel better then what of it? What I found interesting is not that a girl from D4 who is right for parody in a Ross O’Carroll Kelly novel would not think of MMcG as being Irish (she might want to stick to Powerscourt Shopping Centre and leave politics and questions of national identity to those with greater mental dexterity perhaps?) but the backlash I saw against her here in Dublin.
I am a northerner; I am from North Armagh (aka God’s country) and have lived in Co. Clare and now in Dublin as well as other places outside of Ireland (am’t I great); tbh, I had people making a point of coming up to me to denounce her as some spoiled lunatic who doesn’t know much of the North. And that’s fair enough, but tbh, I didn’t expect much from someone from D4, it’s FG/Blue Shirt country, the worst kind of Irish man and woman, West Brits. I deal with them in my line of business all of the time (legal/finance though I’m no 1%er!) on a near regular basis and these people are a fickle lot who have no country, they support and root for themselves.
There lot is that of the self-righteous, those who do not wish to or have not to make tough decisions, who follow a nice, neat ‘narrative’ and best be careful they stick to it or they may have to ask questions. That is why I particularly enjoy watching the ‘rise of SF’ here in the South, not because I support their cause, no because the establishment is crapping it and I love watching the golden circle squirm; they don’t know what to do, and by ‘they’ I mean the pols and the press. Everything they try only makes it easier for SF to pick votes up; attack SF’s financial acumen? Sure look where the other guys got us!; attack SF’s past? everyone knows what they did, it hasn’t lost them any votes and behind closed doors a lot of people will not say in polite conversation that they actually respect ‘da boys’ for what they did!
I have a question for you FJH; do you think or feel the letsgetalongerists/PFC/Alliance are gaining traction outside of the Belfast commuter belt or do you think they’ve peaked for this electoral cycle? I’ll give my thoughts later
That question re Allaince is actually a very difficult one. I am going to need to think about that.
Ok lets think about this. Lets start with that £97,000 Alliance got from Rowntree. On the Rowntree website it gives the reason to increase Stormont representation. Therefore Alliance got ONE extra MLA at a cost of £97,000 (indeed more because the Party is in debt). That of course was a crucial seat because it got them the Dept of Employment & Learning. But it was expensive.
Over the next few months Alliance is scheduled to lose that Executive seat…..actually it may not…..and there is some division in AP about what to do IF that happens. Indeed I understand that relations between some Alliance MLAs are very poor.
Now ironically this presents a dilemna for letsgetalongerists in general because most people believe there are too many Depratments. If ONE has to go then its obvios it has to be the Party with just eight MLAs (and of course they have Justice anyway).
Even if the Executive is cut back by three seats, SDLP & UUP would not lose out. Therefore potentially Alliance will not go into the next Stormont Election in as strong a position as they are now. Al this assumes that there will be no change to constituencies and numbers. Theres no way that AP can take a seat West of the Bann and Rowntree would have to pump a helluva lot of cash into the Party before 2016 to buy them extra seats.
In a 16 constituency (96 member) Stormont, the figures look even worse.
I note Gerry Lynch (Sluggers favourite analyst and former paid employee of Alliance) has stated that at the next Westminster Election (2015), AP should put all their resources into East Belfast. Getting that seat against the odds in 2010 was a morale booster but I believe there were special circumstances….the next East Belfast Election will be a straight fight between Long anda DUP candidate….and while that makes the 2,500 or so SF, Green & SDLP votes important….it probably means that UUP voters are crucial. The best case scenario for SDLP is that Longs bubble is burst….and it is also the best result for UUP. They would rather have a DUP person representing East Belfast as they would be vulnerable to Alliance in other Stormont seats.
Basically UUP has more to lose than SDLP. With the possible but unlikely exception of the second seat in South Belfast, SDLP wont be losing seats to AP.
The drift away of people like Harry Hamilton,Paula Bradshaw and serial defector Ian Parsley has of course made the Alliance Party more “unionist” but this disguises the fact that it has also become more “conservative” and in a constricting market thats a recipe for falling out. Jobs including Advisor roles are on the line.
Simply put….the Rowntree money allowed the Alliance Party to target winning one extra seat to get a seat (another seat) at the Executive table. They effectively abandoned the western constituencies. And a price will have to be paid if fewer Departments means the threshold for getting a seat is raised from eight to (say) ten. SDLP wont slip below ten (their seats are mostly western) so the Alliance party would have to target UUP voters while still trying to hold “Catholic” support.
I dont think they can do that.
The Dream Scenario is that Farry (more conservative leaning than Ford) loses his Executive seat. I suspect Ford would want to hang on as Leader until 2015 (and the Leadership going to a defeated Naomi Long……and Ford going to the Lords).
Farrys best chance is a Leadership Election while Long is still at Westminster. The influx of “liberal unionists” (conservatives) changes the balance.
Paula Bradshaw is already on the AP Executive.
Ian Parsley already holds office in East Antrim.
It could…..hopefully……get very bloody.
I knew the reply would be well worth looking for FJH, and you didn’t disappoint.
I think they (Alliance) are missing a trick regarding the remaining UU votes outside of the commuter belt. If we take for instance Upper Bann, which I am sure you are very familiar with, this should be ‘frontier’ territory for them. They dropped in Flash Harry for the Assembly but he was unable to get them a seat, after he did what can be described as a ‘respectable’ job in the Westminster election. Why is this? Why are they repulsive to people outside of Greater Belfast? I think I know why, but will come to this in a moment.
I cannot, for the life of me, see them getting votes West of the Bann, perhaps only in East Derry, but even there it will not be from Nats. It will have to be from PULs and I cannot see them entertaining such a notion as they know that the seat will start to come into play (IMHO), tying in with the rather informative observations being made on BD’s site (http://bangordub.wordpress.com/2012/08/18/census-2011-what-if/). Norn Iron elections are sectarian head counts; we can bemoan as much as we like this reality but hey, blame those who thought its (Norn Iron) creation on a sectarian head count would be a great idea. No, PULs in East Doire will not vote Alliance as they are a luxury. And this is why Alliance will never do well outside of the commuter belt, IMHO. Now, they could get all PFC and bemoan this, OR, they could embrace this reality and start recruiting people who are unionist lite, but still unionist, and also have a conservative outlook on politics. Hey presto, Flash Harry, Paula Bradshaw and IJP seemingly fit the bill, no? This is pretty risky for them, but I think how they win West of the Bann is by being unionists in all but name, which is what they are, but they do a very large nudge nudge, wink wiink campaign with guys who are unionists in all but name. But, they won’t do it, so no need to panic folks.
Regarding East Belfast, I really don’t know what to think of it, after all, I’m a Nat and the people I knock around with who live there are hipster latte drinkers, lesbians and nut jobs (bit of an exaggeration), the type of people who moved there because the property is fairly cheap and there’s decent transport links, not because they wanted to be close to Bangor (sorry BD) or they love running around Stormont at the weekend. I could very well see Long losing the seat, but it will largely depend upon who she goes up against. Someone mentioned the current Belfast Mayor as a suitable candidate; he’s young, somewhat photogenic (behave everyone!), and has handled himself well by the pretty low standards of DUP mayors, but he might be a bit green behind the ears (no slur on him btw). Long will have a large personal vote but there is enough their who would love to get her out. I cannot see Nats bringing themselves to get her out as she does seem quite sound by Alliance standards, someone who probably genuinely embraces what her party supposedly stands for.
As for there lot at the Assembly, tough again. SDLP leak some votes to Alliance but nothing like the UU does. Also, and this may be completely unfounded, but votes from Nats to the Alliance are normally wasted votes or votes made in constituencies where we have no chance of gaining a seat/representation. When we have a chance, I would imagine that a lot of these votes come back ‘to the fold’ so to speak. Boundary changes, decrease in MLA numbers, all of this will prove costly to them, and they know this.
Should be pretty bloody the next few years, and I suspect it will happen all rather quickly as opposed to being dragged out, yay!
People tend to assume that the Alliance Party are stronger now than ever before. In fact they were stronger in the 1970s and actually outvoted the SDLP in the “Council” Elections of 1973.
Currently they stand on 8 seats out of 108…..but the Convention in the late 1970s they had 10 seats out of 78.
They talked up East Derry. But nothing happened. But it like Upper Bann is their “frontier”.
Harry Hamilton helped them last year but they fielded two candidates because locally the AP could not stomach fielding just one candidate..the man they had voted against just a year before. But they do have council seats in Coleraine and Craigavon (actually 2 in Craigavon the same as SDLP) and they also have a seat in Downpatrick. But its the limit of their vote gathering area.
There was no real strategy involving Upper Bann….Harry just dropped in.
They are arguably cross community…..but they cannot cross the Bann…….although they have a certain “tradition” in Omagh.
They cannot broaden their appeal and simultaneously be more unionist/conservative without losing Catholic, nationalist and even lefty voters.
They can certainly target liberal unionists in the East. But there is already a civil war in the UUP between traditional (religiously conservative) unionists and secular pragmatic unionists in the east.
It would be comparatively easy to target say votes for McGimpsey (South Belfast) Copeland (East Belfast) Cree (North Down) and McIvor (Lagan Valley) but realistically too difficult to target votes for Kennedy (Newry-Armagh) Elliott (FST) or Hussey (West Tyrone).